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	<title>Comments on: Factional differences in combat SCUs</title>
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	<link>http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/</link>
	<description>Transporting our ACUs to your base since 2007</description>
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		<title>By: DeadMG</title>
		<link>http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/comment-page-1/#comment-3951</link>
		<dc:creator>DeadMG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:45:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/#comment-3951</guid>
		<description>&quot;Total_Inhalation: Since the Cybran SCU does significantly more damage per shot and has a much better regen, one would expect it to win. However, I should point out that this isn’t really a test of general effectiveness, because a 1v1 encounter does not factor in the area of effect damage that the Aeon and UEF SCUs can get.&quot;

Of course, the EMP splash just makes sure they arent shooting back while you rape them one by one. Its like paralysis! :D- but you are right it doesnt work on buildings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Total_Inhalation: Since the Cybran SCU does significantly more damage per shot and has a much better regen, one would expect it to win. However, I should point out that this isn’t really a test of general effectiveness, because a 1v1 encounter does not factor in the area of effect damage that the Aeon and UEF SCUs can get.&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course, the EMP splash just makes sure they arent shooting back while you rape them one by one. Its like paralysis! :D- but you are right it doesnt work on buildings.</p>
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		<title>By: amanasleep</title>
		<link>http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/comment-page-1/#comment-3879</link>
		<dc:creator>amanasleep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2007 02:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/#comment-3879</guid>
		<description>@Grokmoo:  You are wrong about Aeons having the best RAS.  They have the worst.  Cybran has the best.  Energy may be easier to get than mass, but +800e/s is way more valuable than +6m/s. 800e/s is worth about 12 m/s when you feed it through T3 mass fab, even with no adjacency.

Furthermore, that extra 2200 mass that the Aeon SCU costs is extremely significant.  It takes an Aeon SCU with RAS two more minutes to pay for its mass cost than the other two, and that&#039;s not even considering that the others produce more energy and can therefore support more T3 massfabs.

As far as base assaults go, you are right that Cybrans are the weakest for this, but they are still quite powerful.  UEF are the best because of the bubble shield, and Aeon are good because you can pump out large numbers of combat ready units without having to upgrade.

SCU&#039;s are easily the most powerful base-assaulting units, even better than experimentals, SAB&#039;s, or Strat Bombers (well, possibly not bombers).  In any event, the thing that really puts them over the top is the death nuke.  There is just no way to stop SCU spam indefinitely.  No amount of PD can kill the same mass in SCU&#039;s before they get to the front line, and once they do they have enormous splash, and enough damage that 2 of them will take out entire rows of PD.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Grokmoo:  You are wrong about Aeons having the best RAS.  They have the worst.  Cybran has the best.  Energy may be easier to get than mass, but +800e/s is way more valuable than +6m/s. 800e/s is worth about 12 m/s when you feed it through T3 mass fab, even with no adjacency.</p>
<p>Furthermore, that extra 2200 mass that the Aeon SCU costs is extremely significant.  It takes an Aeon SCU with RAS two more minutes to pay for its mass cost than the other two, and that&#8217;s not even considering that the others produce more energy and can therefore support more T3 massfabs.</p>
<p>As far as base assaults go, you are right that Cybrans are the weakest for this, but they are still quite powerful.  UEF are the best because of the bubble shield, and Aeon are good because you can pump out large numbers of combat ready units without having to upgrade.</p>
<p>SCU&#8217;s are easily the most powerful base-assaulting units, even better than experimentals, SAB&#8217;s, or Strat Bombers (well, possibly not bombers).  In any event, the thing that really puts them over the top is the death nuke.  There is just no way to stop SCU spam indefinitely.  No amount of PD can kill the same mass in SCU&#8217;s before they get to the front line, and once they do they have enormous splash, and enough damage that 2 of them will take out entire rows of PD.</p>
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		<title>By: Total_Inhalation</title>
		<link>http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/comment-page-1/#comment-3849</link>
		<dc:creator>Total_Inhalation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/#comment-3849</guid>
		<description>Grokmoo: All true. I use sandbox tests as basic indication of strength. And it is true that the results cannot be directly applied to real game situations. There are so many variables that actual experience versus other humans is the only way to know a unit or tactic&#039;s actual strength. Even then you certainly don&#039;t have a definitive &quot;how to win&quot; tactic because you never know what your next opponent is going to do differently than your last.

I agree that Cybran SCU&#039;s are not good at base sieging unless you get them out and upgraded relatively early, before your opponent has spammed PD and PD2. They still make a good damage sponge in conjunction with SABs up until the point where the enemy has virtually impenetrable base defenses (read:  Fields of Isis).

One upgrade that I have found to be truly useless is the Nanite Missile System (back) for the cybran. Even though the tool tip calls it the &quot;standard cybran missile system&quot; it fires 1/4 as many shots per second as a myrmidon and costs 100 more mass and about 10 times the amount of energy. You would be much better off building SAMs wherever your SCU is attacking instead of getting the upgrade. You can also build 10 T2 AA, which would do 150 dps (compared to the upgrade&#039;s 34 dps) while saving yourself 75000 energy as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grokmoo: All true. I use sandbox tests as basic indication of strength. And it is true that the results cannot be directly applied to real game situations. There are so many variables that actual experience versus other humans is the only way to know a unit or tactic&#8217;s actual strength. Even then you certainly don&#8217;t have a definitive &#8220;how to win&#8221; tactic because you never know what your next opponent is going to do differently than your last.</p>
<p>I agree that Cybran SCU&#8217;s are not good at base sieging unless you get them out and upgraded relatively early, before your opponent has spammed PD and PD2. They still make a good damage sponge in conjunction with SABs up until the point where the enemy has virtually impenetrable base defenses (read:  Fields of Isis).</p>
<p>One upgrade that I have found to be truly useless is the Nanite Missile System (back) for the cybran. Even though the tool tip calls it the &#8220;standard cybran missile system&#8221; it fires 1/4 as many shots per second as a myrmidon and costs 100 more mass and about 10 times the amount of energy. You would be much better off building SAMs wherever your SCU is attacking instead of getting the upgrade. You can also build 10 T2 AA, which would do 150 dps (compared to the upgrade&#8217;s 34 dps) while saving yourself 75000 energy as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Grokmoo</title>
		<link>http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/comment-page-1/#comment-3847</link>
		<dc:creator>Grokmoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/#comment-3847</guid>
		<description>All of this talk of SCU v SCU combat is interesting, and probably warrants a post of its own.  However, the purpose of this post was to talk about SCUs being used in a base assault role, and in my experience this very rarely involves much in the way of combat upgraded SCU v combat upgraded SCU combat.

Total_Inhalation: Since the Cybran SCU does significantly more damage per shot and has a much better regen, one would expect it to win.  However, I should point out that this isn&#039;t really a test of general effectiveness, because a 1v1 encounter does not factor in the area of effect damage that the Aeon and UEF SCUs can get.

I should point out that the Aeon SCUs really aren&#039;t inefficient with respect to the RAS upgrade.  The Aeon RAS is the best, since it gives +18 mass/second (+15 for UEF, +12 for Cybran).  The amount of energy per second is rarely if ever an issue past the first few SCUs.  (except perhaps for a Cybran player building Scathi).  An RAS upgraded UEF or Cybran SCU costs 9k mass and about 600k energy.  An RAS upgraded Aeon SCU costs 11.2k mass and about 600k energy.  In fact, if you are only considering the amount of mass per second output compared to mass input, the UEF SCU is the most efficient, followed very closely by the Aeon one.  The Cybran SCU is then the least efficient.

As for the EMP upgrade, an area of effect certainly makes them brutal in SCU v SCU battles.  However, for base assaults, I stand by my statement that it just isn&#039;t a useful upgrade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All of this talk of SCU v SCU combat is interesting, and probably warrants a post of its own.  However, the purpose of this post was to talk about SCUs being used in a base assault role, and in my experience this very rarely involves much in the way of combat upgraded SCU v combat upgraded SCU combat.</p>
<p>Total_Inhalation: Since the Cybran SCU does significantly more damage per shot and has a much better regen, one would expect it to win.  However, I should point out that this isn&#8217;t really a test of general effectiveness, because a 1v1 encounter does not factor in the area of effect damage that the Aeon and UEF SCUs can get.</p>
<p>I should point out that the Aeon SCUs really aren&#8217;t inefficient with respect to the RAS upgrade.  The Aeon RAS is the best, since it gives +18 mass/second (+15 for UEF, +12 for Cybran).  The amount of energy per second is rarely if ever an issue past the first few SCUs.  (except perhaps for a Cybran player building Scathi).  An RAS upgraded UEF or Cybran SCU costs 9k mass and about 600k energy.  An RAS upgraded Aeon SCU costs 11.2k mass and about 600k energy.  In fact, if you are only considering the amount of mass per second output compared to mass input, the UEF SCU is the most efficient, followed very closely by the Aeon one.  The Cybran SCU is then the least efficient.</p>
<p>As for the EMP upgrade, an area of effect certainly makes them brutal in SCU v SCU battles.  However, for base assaults, I stand by my statement that it just isn&#8217;t a useful upgrade.</p>
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		<title>By: Total_Inhalation</title>
		<link>http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/comment-page-1/#comment-3829</link>
		<dc:creator>Total_Inhalation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/#comment-3829</guid>
		<description>I did still more tests and:

Aeon with regen will beat Cybran with regen. But Aeon with regen will lose to a Cybran with damage upgrade. Also the vanilla Aeon will beat the vanilla Cybran. If you look at the numbers In every case the SCU that costs the most money wins. Considering that, I would say that SCU&#039;s are fairly well balanced according to these tests</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did still more tests and:</p>
<p>Aeon with regen will beat Cybran with regen. But Aeon with regen will lose to a Cybran with damage upgrade. Also the vanilla Aeon will beat the vanilla Cybran. If you look at the numbers In every case the SCU that costs the most money wins. Considering that, I would say that SCU&#8217;s are fairly well balanced according to these tests</p>
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		<title>By: amanasleep</title>
		<link>http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/comment-page-1/#comment-3808</link>
		<dc:creator>amanasleep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/#comment-3808</guid>
		<description>The Aeon damage is essentially identical to UEF with damage upgrade.  In any event, a vanilla Aeon SCU beats vanilla Cybran or UEF, and beats UEF with damage upgrade or Shield.  If you add regen to the Aeon SCU it beats a Cybran with regen or damage upgrade.  They do not take more time to make than other SCU&#039;s, in fact they take less overall since Cybran and UEF need at least 1 upgrade to be as good.

Also, late game teleport is still good despite being not quite as overpowering as originally believed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Aeon damage is essentially identical to UEF with damage upgrade.  In any event, a vanilla Aeon SCU beats vanilla Cybran or UEF, and beats UEF with damage upgrade or Shield.  If you add regen to the Aeon SCU it beats a Cybran with regen or damage upgrade.  They do not take more time to make than other SCU&#8217;s, in fact they take less overall since Cybran and UEF need at least 1 upgrade to be as good.</p>
<p>Also, late game teleport is still good despite being not quite as overpowering as originally believed.</p>
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		<title>By: DeadMG</title>
		<link>http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/comment-page-1/#comment-3800</link>
		<dc:creator>DeadMG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:52:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/#comment-3800</guid>
		<description>Having not really done combat SCU vs combat SCU tests, I wasnt aware the effect triggers even off shields.
However, Aeon SCU&#039;s take more time and mass and have least DPS, so their lack of a damage upgrade isnt a great feature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having not really done combat SCU vs combat SCU tests, I wasnt aware the effect triggers even off shields.<br />
However, Aeon SCU&#8217;s take more time and mass and have least DPS, so their lack of a damage upgrade isnt a great feature.</p>
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		<title>By: amanasleep</title>
		<link>http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/comment-page-1/#comment-3791</link>
		<dc:creator>amanasleep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/#comment-3791</guid>
		<description>Cybran EMP can defeat bubble shielded UEF SCU&#039;s by simply walking the Cybran SCU through the shield.  Once underneath, the UEF SCU has no additional shielding and will be stunned.

In an upgraded SCU v SCU battle, Cybran&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;All.

However, every SCU, even the Aeon, are useful.  Cybrans are best vs mobile units because of the huge damage, regen, and EMP.  UEF are incredible at assaulting fixed defenses.  The bubble shield allows them to create firebases much more easily than the other races.  They are also superb at base defense, creating shielding that is even resistant to Mavor shells.  Aeon SCU&#039;s are certainly the weakest, and are very inefficient for RAS because of the high cost of each SCU.  But for combat purposes they are excellent, and a force of combat ready Aeon SCU&#039;s will come on line much faster than for the other races because they require no damage upgrade.  Fully upgraded, their cost and combat ability is similar to other SCU&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cybran EMP can defeat bubble shielded UEF SCU&#8217;s by simply walking the Cybran SCU through the shield.  Once underneath, the UEF SCU has no additional shielding and will be stunned.</p>
<p>In an upgraded SCU v SCU battle, Cybran&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;All.</p>
<p>However, every SCU, even the Aeon, are useful.  Cybrans are best vs mobile units because of the huge damage, regen, and EMP.  UEF are incredible at assaulting fixed defenses.  The bubble shield allows them to create firebases much more easily than the other races.  They are also superb at base defense, creating shielding that is even resistant to Mavor shells.  Aeon SCU&#8217;s are certainly the weakest, and are very inefficient for RAS because of the high cost of each SCU.  But for combat purposes they are excellent, and a force of combat ready Aeon SCU&#8217;s will come on line much faster than for the other races because they require no damage upgrade.  Fully upgraded, their cost and combat ability is similar to other SCU&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: Total_Inhalation</title>
		<link>http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/comment-page-1/#comment-3786</link>
		<dc:creator>Total_Inhalation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/#comment-3786</guid>
		<description>I mentioned above that I tested EMP against experimentals and it does not work. (tested on ML Fatboy and GC).
And I cannot beilieve how i missed the fact that EMP has area of effect! Thanks for the info.

However you are incorrect in assuming that the Aeon shield needs to go down before EMP will effect them - it works even through the shielding. The UEF &quot;Shield Generator Field&quot; upgrade WILL stop EMP from working but only because the shield extends farther from the SCU than EMP&#039;s AOE (kinda rhymes huh). But if a SAB is standing behind the shield while the Cybran SCU with EMP is hitting the shield - the SAB will still get frozen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mentioned above that I tested EMP against experimentals and it does not work. (tested on ML Fatboy and GC).<br />
And I cannot beilieve how i missed the fact that EMP has area of effect! Thanks for the info.</p>
<p>However you are incorrect in assuming that the Aeon shield needs to go down before EMP will effect them &#8211; it works even through the shielding. The UEF &#8220;Shield Generator Field&#8221; upgrade WILL stop EMP from working but only because the shield extends farther from the SCU than EMP&#8217;s AOE (kinda rhymes huh). But if a SAB is standing behind the shield while the Cybran SCU with EMP is hitting the shield &#8211; the SAB will still get frozen.</p>
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		<title>By: DeadMG</title>
		<link>http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/comment-page-1/#comment-3784</link>
		<dc:creator>DeadMG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 11:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/06/22/factional-differences-in-combat-scus/#comment-3784</guid>
		<description>About the above: you can easily test the focus converters damage per projectile in a game and it is clearly about 1000, firing every 0.6 seconds as stated on Nowak&#039;s website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About the above: you can easily test the focus converters damage per projectile in a game and it is clearly about 1000, firing every 0.6 seconds as stated on Nowak&#8217;s website.</p>
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