Comments on: High quality AI to come with Forged Alliance? http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/ Forging new Alliances daily Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:06:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Steven http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-32660 Steven Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:56:21 +0000 http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-32660 The AI in forge allaince is actully worse then AI in superem commander, I asked the forum mods in game about it and they said they did not improve the AI, if you can easly tell that the new AI id dumb down actully, becuase if you put in stragic points on a new map that u creat or even one thats already made, the New ai will not use the startic points example AI will not ferry large amounts of trops from one location to anthere to do an attack, the AI in orginal will and can if you set up the commands on map. Ai has been repotredly down sized. The AI in forge allaince is actully worse then AI in superem commander, I asked the forum mods in game about it and they said they did not improve the AI, if you can easly tell that the new AI id dumb down actully, becuase if you put in stragic points on a new map that u creat or even one thats already made, the New ai will not use the startic points example AI will not ferry large amounts of trops from one location to anthere to do an attack, the AI in orginal will and can if you set up the commands on map.

Ai has been repotredly down sized.

]]> By: Steven http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-32661 Steven Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:56:12 +0000 http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-32661 The AI in forge allaince is actulyl worse then AI in superem commander, I asked the forum mods in game about it and they said they did not improve the AI, if you can easly tell that the new AI id dumb down actully, becuase if you put in stragic points on a new map that u creat or even one thats already made, the New ai will not use the startic points example AI will not ferry large amounts of trops from one location to anthere to do an attack, the AI in orginal will and can if you set up the commands on map. Ai has been repotredly down sized. The AI in forge allaince is actulyl worse then AI in superem commander, I asked the forum mods in game about it and they said they did not improve the AI, if you can easly tell that the new AI id dumb down actully, becuase if you put in stragic points on a new map that u creat or even one thats already made, the New ai will not use the startic points example AI will not ferry large amounts of trops from one location to anthere to do an attack, the AI in orginal will and can if you set up the commands on map.

Ai has been repotredly down sized.

]]> By: theShiznit http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-5316 theShiznit Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:24:05 +0000 http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-5316 The AI sux but it will get the noobs started. I dont think it was ever intended for serious challenge for high end players. The AI sux but it will get the noobs started. I dont think it was ever intended for serious challenge for high end players.

]]> By: Gryphyn http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-5309 Gryphyn Tue, 31 Jul 2007 04:27:35 +0000 http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-5309 I only play against AI as well, comp stomps with my buddies. If playing against people, then it is personal. When playing with friends against a common ally, it is fun. I wish the AI was more configurable. I only play against AI as well, comp stomps with my buddies. If playing against people, then it is personal. When playing with friends against a common ally, it is fun.

I wish the AI was more configurable.

]]> By: Andreaz http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-5293 Andreaz Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:44:16 +0000 http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-5293 Unconquerable said: “I fail to see why anyone would even want to play against AI?” I only play offline against AI. Too much shit going on online with human players. I just can't be bothered. Unconquerable said:
“I fail to see why anyone would even want to play against AI?”

I only play offline against AI. Too much shit going on online with human players. I just can’t be bothered.

]]> By: lucus http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-4921 lucus Mon, 16 Jul 2007 04:07:12 +0000 http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-4921 the problem with massive chains of if then statements is the amount of processing power required. deep blue, the first truly successful [i]chess[/i] playing computer, was a friken huge supercomp. it needed to be to evaluate the statements it was running through. an if then statement tree for sup com on the same caliber would probably require a hundred times the power. the problem with computers is not their ability to micro. a perfect economy only goes so far. what really counts on the battlefield is creativity. attacking your opponent where he least expects. now I'm not the greatest player, in fact i loose most of the games i play because I'm not too good at managing my economy. but i can whip the comp because i know how to go around the main defenses and hit the targets that really count. all the best player know how to do this as well. you never see a computer send bombers around the back of a base, so why build sam-sites back there? and all that saved mass can be put back into your econ. while playing a person though, if you don't have a few scouts patrolling 360 around your base, you will get a nasty surprise coming in the back door. to make a comp smart enough to do that, yet efficient enough to run on a pc and not a supercomp, well that would be hard the problem with massive chains of if then statements is the amount of processing power required. deep blue, the first truly successful [i]chess[/i] playing computer, was a friken huge supercomp. it needed to be to evaluate the statements it was running through. an if then statement tree for sup com on the same caliber would probably require a hundred times the power. the problem with computers is not their ability to micro. a perfect economy only goes so far. what really counts on the battlefield is creativity. attacking your opponent where he least expects. now I’m not the greatest player, in fact i loose most of the games i play because I’m not too good at managing my economy. but i can whip the comp because i know how to go around the main defenses and hit the targets that really count. all the best player know how to do this as well. you never see a computer send bombers around the back of a base, so why build sam-sites back there? and all that saved mass can be put back into your econ. while playing a person though, if you don’t have a few scouts patrolling 360 around your base, you will get a nasty surprise coming in the back door. to make a comp smart enough to do that, yet efficient enough to run on a pc and not a supercomp, well that would be hard

]]> By: Trahma http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-4920 Trahma Mon, 16 Jul 2007 03:40:25 +0000 http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-4920 Actually a big tree of if/then is a finite state machine or expert system, not a true AI. A finite state machine will always respond to the same stimulus the same way. While it is conceivable to anticipate every single possible state that a Sup Com game may reach, it isnt really practical, so bands of states become your conditionals. Fuzzy state logic is the next step, which is best thought of as a reverse process. The 'AI' has a number of possible strategies to different solutions, and it matches them against the situations, weighting them based on how close they match up. It then randomly chooses based on that weighting. The best 'AI's use a mix of the various approaches to artificial decision making. But game AI's have to deliver without requiring a super computer - vexing isnt it. Actually a big tree of if/then is a finite state machine or expert system, not a true AI. A finite state machine will always respond to the same stimulus the same way. While it is conceivable to anticipate every single possible state that a Sup Com game may reach, it isnt really practical, so bands of states become your conditionals.

Fuzzy state logic is the next step, which is best thought of as a reverse process. The ‘AI’ has a number of possible strategies to different solutions, and it matches them against the situations, weighting them based on how close they match up. It then randomly chooses based on that weighting.

The best ‘AI’s use a mix of the various approaches to artificial decision making.

But game AI’s have to deliver without requiring a super computer - vexing isnt it.

]]> By: Breezy http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-4890 Breezy Sun, 15 Jul 2007 05:53:52 +0000 http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-4890 If-else statements are a great AI system. It's what human intelligence would do. If your opponent is building air, respond with anti air. GPG can just have AI collect information, and store it in a system short term per game somewhat like how webstats were, but with a sight radius for each unit to detect what the human player is building. For instance, an AI scout might fly over a base and count 16 Bombers, with no interceptors or other anti air, In response, this could trigger the AI to build interceptors to destroy the bomber fleet. But of course, a real AI would be much more complex than this. There would be very large chains of if-elses attached to data collection. It could include triggers such as... IF commander is taking damage AND there are > (1) gunship within (20) units of distance, THEN commander does little circle dances AND triggers another trigger, which triggers a series of triggers to deal with the gunships... etc etc. AI is an intricate If-else statement trigger setup. But I think with a good one, they should be able to play near flawlessly. With good scouting, intricate knowledge of the game, and better than human reaction times, how could anyone lose? (those are the three things top players have, right? i swear they even have better than human reaction times) If-else statements are a great AI system. It’s what human intelligence would do. If your opponent is building air, respond with anti air. GPG can just have AI collect information, and store it in a system short term per game somewhat like how webstats were, but with a sight radius for each unit to detect what the human player is building. For instance, an AI scout might fly over a base and count 16 Bombers, with no interceptors or other anti air, In response, this could trigger the AI to build interceptors to destroy the bomber fleet. But of course, a real AI would be much more complex than this. There would be very large chains of if-elses attached to data collection. It could include triggers such as… IF commander is taking damage AND there are > (1) gunship within (20) units of distance, THEN commander does little circle dances AND triggers another trigger, which triggers a series of triggers to deal with the gunships… etc etc.

AI is an intricate If-else statement trigger setup. But I think with a good one, they should be able to play near flawlessly. With good scouting, intricate knowledge of the game, and better than human reaction times, how could anyone lose? (those are the three things top players have, right? i swear they even have better than human reaction times)

]]> By: T2A` http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-4884 T2A` Sat, 14 Jul 2007 22:47:03 +0000 http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-4884 There is no AI in the sense of real intelligence. It's just a bunch of if-else statements that attempt to make it play the game. Making something like that adapt is very difficult (if not impossible), so it plays the middle, always going for equal land, air, and naval (in theory) with proper (and exactly the same) defense at each key point it manages to capture. GPG attempted to make different types of AI, but in the end I've seen zero difference between them -- the rush AI sends about six light bots before you can blow it up and the tech AI does the same. The best thing they could do for the AI is to stop it from tech EVERYTHING all the time and build some damn units. A little resource cheating wouldn't hurt either. There is no AI in the sense of real intelligence. It’s just a bunch of if-else statements that attempt to make it play the game. Making something like that adapt is very difficult (if not impossible), so it plays the middle, always going for equal land, air, and naval (in theory) with proper (and exactly the same) defense at each key point it manages to capture. GPG attempted to make different types of AI, but in the end I’ve seen zero difference between them — the rush AI sends about six light bots before you can blow it up and the tech AI does the same. The best thing they could do for the AI is to stop it from tech EVERYTHING all the time and build some damn units. A little resource cheating wouldn’t hurt either.

]]> By: Chaos-Storm http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-4882 Chaos-Storm Sat, 14 Jul 2007 17:05:07 +0000 http://www.supcomtalk.com/2007/07/13/high-quality-ai-to-come-with-forged-alliance/#comment-4882 Most people that purchase the game will only ever play against the AI, and even people that play online sometimes need a competent ai to test things with. A tough AI goes a long way to make supreme commander a more complete and polished product. For most people that play online it makes little difference, but at the very least it will improve preception of the game from outside influences, and help people that don't play online for whatever reason. This being said, while the supreme ai is bad, most strategy games have an AI that is incredibly weak, doesn't adapt, and is easily defeated, so the complaints with supreme commanders AI, while true, is by no means unique in the world of RTS. I believe its entirely possible to create an AI that can regularly defeat human players. Even top players don't grow their economy with perfect efficiency, can't dance their units to perfection, or can stage an attack on multiple fronts with perfect precision. Most people that purchase the game will only ever play against the AI, and even people that play online sometimes need a competent ai to test things with. A tough AI goes a long way to make supreme commander a more complete and polished product. For most people that play online it makes little difference, but at the very least it will improve preception of the game from outside influences, and help people that don’t play online for whatever reason.

This being said, while the supreme ai is bad, most strategy games have an AI that is incredibly weak, doesn’t adapt, and is easily defeated, so the complaints with supreme commanders AI, while true, is by no means unique in the world of RTS.

I believe its entirely possible to create an AI that can regularly defeat human players. Even top players don’t grow their economy with perfect efficiency, can’t dance their units to perfection, or can stage an attack on multiple fronts with perfect precision.

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