Fear the Riptide!
Now I would have loved for my first post to be a lengthy and lofty thesis on what the RTS genre is, how it is defined, how SupCom is the ultimate manifestation of that genre to date, how the RTS genre fits into computer gaming in general, etc., etc. I would also love to post about how Forged Alliance has revolutionized the game and brought it from its flawed initial state to its current awesomeness. However, seeing as this is my first real post, I decided to set my sites quite a bit lower and instead just write a simple article about a single unit: the UEF Riptide!
Now if you are new to Forged Alliance, i.e. you didn’t get to play the beta and you are experiencing the unit balance for the first time, you should know that the Riptide you thought you knew is gone. It has been replaced by something else, a spawn of hell fury that will ruin your day in a hurry. Lets start by looking at the stats, shall we?
The original SupCom Riptide was as so: 600 hp, 80 dps, 18 range, cost 100 mass. The simple truth was that due to its lack of Hp and range it was rarely used, in my experience anyways. I would every now and then surprise someone on Finn’s by using it to attack the islands but in a standup fight it just didn’t compare, and really no one expected it too. I think it was rationalized that since it had the magic ability to “hover”, therefore it should be more expensive and if you weren’t using it for its hover ability you probably should be using something else. Thus was the Riptide of SupCom.
Now let me introduce you to my little friend, the new improved Riptide of Forged Alliance. The new Riptide now features 1700 hp, 90 dps, 18 range and costs 297 mass. In other words, the unit has been completely rethought. In fact, Tech 2 land balance overall has been completely rethought, and there is a method to the madness. All factions now have a “heavy” T2 unit and one or more “light” T2 unit. For example the Aeon now have the Blaze which functions as a light T2 unit, while the Obsidian functions as a heavy one. For the UEF, it would seem obvious that the Pillar would become the “heavy” T2 unit, but instead the gods of war chose the Riptide. For comparison, the Pillar has 1200 hp, 54 dps, 23 range, and costs 198 mass. But every good player knows you can’t compare raw stats, to understand balance you have to look at what you are getting for your mass. In this case, lets compare HP/mass ratios and DPS/mass ratios. The Riptide has HP/mass ratio of 5.72 and a DPS/mass ratio of 0.303. The Pillar, on the other hand has a HP/mass of 6.06 and a DPS/mass ratio of 0.272. In other words the Riptide is more destructive but slightly less durable. They seem relativley equal, except for one little fact… the Riptide can hover. The Pillar does compensate for this with a little more range, but the Riptide is also a bit faster. Gone is the nerf that went along with amphibious ability, and the implications are clear: Riptides can now be used on any map, water or otherwise, and they kick some serious butt. Its DPS means a single riptide can kill a T1 Mex in under 9 seconds!
I’d like to move on to discussion of how to use Riptides effectively, though as I’ve said I’m hardly a master tactician. Here goes anyways: Any unit that boasts a higher DPS/mass ratio but a lower HP/mass ratio relative to other units of its tier is probably best suited to raiding or quick attacks that overwhelm defenses, and the Riptide is no exception. On maps like White Fire, UEF should be spamming Riptides like crazy. They completely eliminate any advantage the Aeon or Serpahim might have had with their T1 ampib. units, and with careful planning you can be spamming Riptides fairly quickly on a large map like that. Also, remember that they will auto-targe T1 units first, as this is the most efficient use of their guns which fire a steady stream of damage instead of bursts like most other guns. Probably the greatest weakness of Riptides raiding on large maps is gunships, and since the UEF lack an amphibious AA platform, be prepared to use fighters or even frigates or cruisers to defend your Riptides from ravaging gunships. A lot more could be written on how Riptides fit into the naval balance, but suffice it to say they are an excellent counter to frigates, which they generally will eat alve.
Its worth mentioning before closing that the Seraphim and Aeon have units which on the surface appear to be close competitors. In reality however they both fall into the “light” category, and neither are as effective as the Riptide. The Blaze has a HP/mass ratio of only 4.77 and a DPS/mass ratio of only 0.227. The Seraphim Yenzyne is a bit better with a HP/mass ratio of 5.91 but only has a DPS/mass ratio 0.2. On top of that its gun deals high damage at a slower rate, meaning more wasted DPS when fighting T1. So in reality the Riptide stands alone as by far the most effective T2 amphib unit that travels on the surface (the Wagner is another beast entirely).
So there you have it. Is the Riptide imbalanced? Possibly, but I think its vulnerabilty to air is substantial and its short range and lack of durability (compared to the Pillar) make it less suitable storming heavy defenses. Do you think the Riptide is imbalanced? Have any really good or bad Riptide stories? Do you think amphibious units should be penalized simply because they are amphibious, or do you think they should be designed to be useful on all maps? Post your thoughts!
November 12th, 2007 at 12:18 am
The Riptide is a bit OP IMO. I think it could use maybe a slight HP nerf, or Range nerf, or maybe Speed nerf. I’m not a pro or anything, so I can’t really say that it is OP.
November 12th, 2007 at 12:29 am
Aeon can counter with blazes under mobile shield gen+t2 flak on water maps. Cybran and seraphim have to depend on bombers/gunships primarily which IMO is a bit of a problem but not a huge one.
November 12th, 2007 at 1:22 am
I never ever used a Riptide in vanilla SupCom. Nice to hear that they’re worth something in Forged Alliance.
November 12th, 2007 at 5:10 am
A great first post, Engy.
November 12th, 2007 at 8:27 am
I’ve only used them once, in the campaign of SC.. so maybe time for some rethinking of the naval BS-cruiser-submarine triumvirate? :)
November 12th, 2007 at 9:46 am
Sounds pretty good. I haven’t got Forged Alliance yet, but from what I can tell, it looks like they’ve provided light and heavy options at all tech levels for most factions.
Wouldn’t the Riptide make Frigates completely obsolete? It seems to me that any associated imbalance could have been therefore avoided by making the Pillar the heavy entry, and the Riptide the light entry.
Excellent first post, hope there’s many more to follow.
November 12th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
I and my small group of friends picked up FA over the weekend, and played a good comp-stomp or two, and I must say I really enjoy it. The new interface takes a bit of getting used to, but all the changes appear to be good. I like the way all the units seem to move more quickly, and respond more quickly to commands. Experimentals also respond and play better. I’m not an expert on the game by any stretch, and don’t play ranked, so I will never be able to evaluate the little details of one unit being better than another. My overall feel though, is that Forged Alliance is goooood stuff.
November 12th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
WOOT! SCT LIVES!
i have not been able to pick up SCFA yet, as frys didn’t have it when i was down that way. im a little concerned about the balance in fa though. i herd that they nerfed mass fabs a lot, so that they are almost not worth building. that, imo, would be a good thing. i always hated loosing to a turtler because he was better at econ than me, even when i showed i was better on the battlefield. from the stats i herd it still sounds like they need to boost mexs though. can anyone here enlighten me? do we still have any of the old pros around that can tell us all about how the new supcom make you fight for the map? or is the game still primarily a “sim city” affair on larger maps? on the small maps are mass fabs ever even built? what about the new maps? is the mod community looking bright? or is it going to petter out and die? what about a friendly map editor? do we still have to have 3-4 separate programs to make a basic map? what about nukes? are they realy more expensive than even the maver? do games still end when someone gets a t3 arty first? or is there a way to recover from the old “game over” units? can you still turtle and expect to win on a small map? are forward fire bases going to be more or less important? is econ still the game winning strat, or can you expect to win based on tactics and deployment, even if you opponent has a better econ? how much time will i have to spend base building as opposed to (the fun part) fighting battles? how much can i ignore my base and have it take care of itself? do the fabled base templets work? soooo many questions! someone send help!
November 12th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
Oooh, really, they nerfed massfabs? Awesome. That was my number one complaint about the original game: the self-made economy dwarfed the importance of mass deposits (and thus map control). Maybe I’ll have to try out Forged Alliance.
November 12th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
Mass fabs were moved to T2, map control is all important now in keeping your economy alive. Thus, it promotes harassment and map control. FA is a completely different beast from SC, and much improved overall.
November 12th, 2007 at 10:45 pm
Cyde Weys, you’ll really like it. They fixed pretty much every complaint you had.
November 12th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
As someone who expands quickly and quickly builds large armies to follow, I think I can answer your question Cyde. Extractors are the centerpoint of the new economy. You need to gain and hold control of as many as you can to feed your mass requirements. However, they don’t produce so much mass that you can squander it. It forces one to carefully select what you will construct with the mass income that you have, while also investing in upgraded extractors/mass storage surrounded extractors to increase your mass income.
You can’t just invest a little mass into a lot of mass fabs and suddenly be rolling in the stuff anymore. It takes some more careful management now, adding a lot to the game, in my opinion.
A good way to hurt an opponent is to strike at his economy, and that economy is much more difficult to defend.
November 12th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Actually, I guess that was Lucus who had the questions.
November 13th, 2007 at 12:32 am
I hate aeon t3 gunships. slaughter them all, none shall exist!
November 13th, 2007 at 6:54 am
http://www.pro-g.co.uk/news/13-11-2007-6872.html
Looks like Supreme Commander is coming to Xbox360. Confirmed. I’m not sure I’m too happy about this.
November 13th, 2007 at 11:41 am
another thing about the massfabs being moved to T2 that I’m not sure was mentioned yet, they now also require 150 energy to produce 1 mass, instead of the old 40 per 1 mass.
Great article btw Engy. Keep it up.
November 13th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
well, its official, after reading all the posts, looking over the fa forum at gpg, and hearing all the positive things about the balance, i will make the effort to get the game today. ill give it a whirl for about a week (will give my chars in wow a chance to build up that rested xp!) and maybe write an opinion article about what i think (i am very opinionated. . .). hopefully we can revive SCT, and attract a few more writers so we can get content up every other day or so. ill do my best to try and submit a few short articles ever other week or so, and not the big ol’ long rants that i wanted to write about sup com. someone mentioned in a past thread about sup com not having a central community site. maybe all of us still here could band together and make this site the glue that holds it all together. what do you say guys? who’s willing to mix a little work in with the play?
November 13th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Frigates are not really a practical counter to Riptides, but it’s all I can think of other than T2 air or T2 PDs. UEF are monsters on RA.
November 13th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
It makes sense that frigates can’t counter Riptides, after all frigates are a T1 unit while Riptides are T2. While frigates have respectiable hitpoints (UEF has 2200 I think) their DPS just isn’t large enough (UEF has about 54 if I recall) to take down the Riptide fast enough. Frigates also have built in radar and intel systems so their value is more than just a surface combat unit like the Riptide.
Riptides are very effective against naval units in general and this might be a sign of them being overpowered. Again, however, their short range is perhaps their greatest drawback, especially against the speed of most surface naval units. Most players don’t have time to babysit their naval units against Riptides though.
Regarding LucasLoc’s comments, I think with the release of FA there could never be a better time to contribute to the community, there is so much to discuss and enjoy in FA. Cyde Wey’s was very helpful with getting me started writing for the site, so if you are worried it is difficult to become an author I assure you it is not! The only thing to keep in mind is the trademark of SupComTalk is strong and intelligent writing, so you need to be willing to put some time into your articles.
November 13th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
I’m down with what LucusLoC regarding more general Supcom community stuff, I’ll try to contribute in any way i can, right now I’m not playing much but I’ll soon be back in the swing of things and hopefully enter the ranking “hundreds” again! I’m not sure how useful I can be other than to lend my support to the excellent work Engineer and the Talk team are doing. I think we need a little more time to really be sure of potential minor IMBA’s in FA, let’s wait and see what the pro’s think in a few weeks or so, especially regarding naval units.
Now that Supcom is confirmed for Xbox (hey Engy maybe make this a topic for your next post?) I’m thinking more than ever it is a perfect time (as Engy said) to “cement” this wonderful if slightly scattered, Supcom community.
November 13th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
*said
November 13th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
I have already contributed one article already, and it seemed to be well received despited being a little rantish (its the topography post). it also seems that someone at gpg read my post because (so i hear) units range as affected by topography seems to be taken into account. i do not know if this is true or not, because i just bought the game today and have not had a chance to play it yet. if it is it will just drive me to write more articles and get more involved. being able to say something and have a dev listen would be awesome. of course most of my half finished articles are obsolete now, because most of them revolved around map control and balance issues, which all seem to be fixed. i do have a few that are requesting certain mods from the mod community, of which i am not really apart, with the exception of being an avid map editor. unfortunately sup coms map editor was so bad that i only was able to put together two unfinished maps before i got fed up with it. what they really need to make the community take off is a simple map editor for the masses. one that buries all the complex stuff (but makes it still accessible for the pros to use) so that the average gamer can say “hey, i want a map of _______, i think ill throw one together” a la sim city, the warcraft series and c&c 2. they may not all have been elegant, but any idiot that could play the game could make a workable map for skirmish. it also needs to accept grey scale bitmaps. everyone can make one of those with just windows. not some horridly obscure file format that its impossible to find an editor for. some of this may already have been taken care of, idk. wow, did i get side tracked there or what? anyhoo, yeah, ease of access for the community, a central hub, and semi daily articles by whoever wishes to contribute will all go a long way to making fa stick around longer than sup com vanilla did.
/end longer than expected post
November 13th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
I have to say, I love these plans to revitalize the site and keep the community going strong. Let me know if there’s any help you guys need. I totally want the community to stay alive, so I’ll keep paying the hosting bills - you all just do the rest!
November 14th, 2007 at 12:54 am
yes Cyde go out and buy a copy of FA (or even grab a copy from the net) as just about ever complaint u ever mentioned was fixed (if memory serves me correctly) my ONLY complaint with FA was the release date! ive still got to wait another 10 days to get my copy!!! already pre-ordered! and downloaded my copy to finish the campain’s in the mean time!
November 14th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
I picked up Supreme Commander when it came out due to all the hype about it and honestly I ended up disappointed. All this talk about break through features and the gameplay seemed to boil down to who could make more T3 bots the fastest. I waited until I could read a couple reviews about FA before purchasing and so far I find that it is a far better experience than the original. The rebalancing of the economy is the biggest selling point for me. My background in stratey games is in Warcraft 2, 3, Starcraft, Command & Conquer, AoE, Company of Heroes, etc. and some turn based jobs like Civilizations and Galactic Civ. Because of this I never was able to break the habit of grabbing territory and upgrading Mex’s as quickly as possible for better income. Every time I found out too late that my opponent was building his economy off of mass fabs and quickly out striped my production capabilities. I love that mass fabs come later and are more expensive, now they are supplimental to mex’s which is how I understood they were supposed to be used all along. I have only had the game for two days and haven’t had enough time to feel out the new unit balance but so far I really like it. Only problem is keeping up with the changes.
I would recommend that anyone who likes strategy games pick up the expansion as it fixes all the issues with the original game. Now if only I could get my online act together and win some matches…..